While sin in our own hearts is our most foundational problem, it’s not our only problem. When we oversimplify and moralize everything, we run the risk of not loving our spouse as a whole person. Join us as we discuss chapter 2 of Dave Harvey’s new book, I Still Do.


Intro
The “Gospel Shaped Home” podcast is a family discipleship resource from Providence Baptist Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. It aims to equip you and your family to be on mission with God, to the end of the street and the ends of the earth.

Andy Owens
Welcome back to another episode of “Gospel Shaped Home,” I’m Andy Owens, pastor of Family Discipleship here at Providence and on the first part of this episode, Bryan and I had started a conversation with Karl and Shanna Moss, and here is the second half of it. Hope you enjoy.

He ends the chapter with talking about kind of like, how does this affect our marriage? And he has three things, but we can kind of talk about those as we go. I’d love to hear from you guys, how you’ve seen this play out in your own marriage because that’s where we really, I think, can help our listeners see how this hits home. This isn’t just theoretical knowledge, this really matters for real life. So by all means.

Karl Moss
I think one of the things that we hit early on in our relationship was just the way that we showed affection. Shanna grew up in a home where there was hugging and touching, occasionally I’d see her parents kiss and stuff.

Andy
Karl is making a really weird face, like can you believe that they would touch each other?

Karl
I grew up in a home where that was not the case and it was super uncomfortable to go over to her house and see physical touch in front of me. This was just weird.

Shanna Moss
He got used to it real quickly.

Karl
I got used to it but…

Andy
Karl has a really good radio face. You guys, this is awesome.

Karl
It’s true. But this was something that I still sometimes battle with this, is just showing Shanna physical touch, just being demonstrative is difficult.

Shanna
Yeah, and I crave physical affection.

Karl
Yeah. So it’s something that we came to the table because of our socially embedded, that circle of where we grew up and how we grew up. This was a foreign thing to me, and it was something that should be private and not on display.

Shanna
Well, and even with children.

Andy
How much affection do you show?

Shanna
How much affection we show. Yeah. I mean, his family was just not demonstrative, even mothers to children, fathers to children, cousins. I mean, they were just very stoic and so…

Karl
The cat got a lot of love.

Andy
Did you guys come to this realization in a moment, in an instant or did it…

Shanna
No, it was lots of discussion and lots of talking about things and I often, and this will kind of go into the conflict area too, if he wasn’t showing me affection or if he wasn’t feeling well or something was bothering him, he would back off from showing affection. Even just so much as holding my hand or giving me a hug, and so I would interpret that as he’s mad at me or he’s withdrawing from me and it’s just, he was just reverting back to, this is just how he was raised. It’s just an effort for him to make sure he’s showing me physical affection because he knows that that’s important to me. Whereas for me, my that’s my default. I mean, COVID, it’s really been hard for me because I touch people, I hug people. I go, I move forward to people as just a regular, that’s how I was raised that’s…

Karl
She’s got a really small bubble.

Shanna
I have a very small bubble, yeah.

Karl
Much smaller than mine.

Shanna
I mean, I grew up with a very big extended family and many of us are like that, so it was very overwhelming for him.

Andy
Sure. You mentioned conflict, is that another area where you’ve seen some of your differences come out or?

Karl
Absolutely. I grew up, you just sweep it under the rug and the less you can talk about it, the better, it’s almost a sport.

Andy
Is there something wrong with that?

Karl
I really, I didn’t see an issue with it.

Andy
I was only joking.

Karl
Once it’s under the rug…

Andy
It’s not healthy.

Karl
It’s gone. It just magically disappears. Never needs to be brought up again.

Andy
You must have a trap door or someone under your rag because it didn’t do that in our house.

Shanna
No, it doesn’t, no trap door.

Andy
No.

Shanna
If there is, I open it.

Andy
You find that door.

Shanna
I find the door. Yeah, and because of my upbringing not only did conflict get dealt with, I mean, there were some, we don’t want to deal with that because it’s difficult, but conflict was also dealt with sometimes with raised voices and other things that were not very pleasant to be dealt with. So, yeah, so to just have somebody refuse to deal with it at all and just again…

Andy
That will make you want to raise your voice even more.

Shanna
Yeah.

Karl
I wasn’t refusing, it was just under the rug.

Shanna
Yeah.

Karl
Where it didn’t need to be dealt.

Shanna
I mean, there were even when we would have conflicts with his parents or when you’re trying to set boundaries as a newlywed couple, or even when the kids were born and we were trying to just, these are our family traditions and things like that. Just even having conversations sometimes I was being accused of a lot of times being overly emotional, just if I would get teary or I would…

Karl
Oh yeah, we didn’t cry either.

Shanna
Yeah. So there’s a lot to work through.

Andy
You and Dave Harvey have some things in common indeed.

Karl
Indeed.

Shanna
Oh, he very much related to Dave Harvey.

Andy
Yeah, sure. So the three things that he mentioned, one, this helps us see the scope of Christ transforming work. I almost started crying and singing when I read that and sort of thinking about Ephesians 1:10 and how God set forth his plan in the fullness of time in Christ to unite all things in him. He’s summing up all things in Christ, he’s bringing them back into order under the headship of Jesus and that’s happening now in the church, that’s what we see in chapter three of Ephesians. Jew, Gentile, formerly alienated now reconciled to God and one another.

But ultimately all of the creation, it’s going to be harmoniously resounding to the praise of the glory of the grace of God under Jesus’s Lordship, and he does that in micro causes in our lives now, when we let the gospel transform us, not just in sin and heart level, but like we learn to die to our own preferences when it comes to how we show affection, how we deal with conflict, how we load the dishwasher, all sorts of stuff.

Karl
How we pull back the rug.

Andy
Yeah. Or don’t and yeah, no, we should. Second, the nested circles transformed our marriage into a place for whole person ministry, it’s kind of answers what Brian you were talking about at the beginning, guards us from oversimplifying and neglecting our spouses personhood. Then the third is that it helps us to adapt to changes. Right? You’re going to be married to lots of different people over the course of your marriage that are all the same person.

Bryan
I thought that was profound. I really did. Just when you read it, it kind of it’s shocking.

Andy
That’s why I said it that way it’s a little bit jolting.

Bryan
Right. But it is, it is absolutely true. We’re not static.

Karl
Well, I think these circles too, a lot like a personality tests, this is not a license for you to be stuck where you are.

Andy
It’s good.

Karl
I don’t want to be stuck in this sweep everything under the rug thing and say, well, that’s just the way I am. We need to be able to adapt to change and try to grow together and that’s where…

Andy
God’s kindness to us.

Shanna
Yeah. Well, and you look at even, I mean, Jesus embodied say, like you said personality test. Jesus embodied all of them and we are to be more like Christ…

Andy
Perfect humanity.

Shanna
Every day, we are to be sanctified and to become more like Christ and that the Holy Spirit teaches us to become more like him every day and when you say, “We are not static.” One of the huge blessings that we have seen throughout our marriage and throughout continuing to work through these things with Christ’s help, with the Holy Spirit’s help is especially in relation with our family, Karl’s mom has dementia and his father passed away nine years ago and just the blessings that we have seen meeting your mother-in-law when you’re 14 and growing from a young teenager in the church, then falling in love and then getting married and having children and now we’re at a position where we are the caregivers and for her going from this woman who is in charge and…

Karl
Her license plate was Boss Moss, just want to lay that out for you, just there you go.

Shanna
She was extremely involved in ministry and all of that, but now we have the privilege of caring for her and these circles really struck me in that as her sister in Christ, I’m seeing a picture of the way she has had physical issues now with dementia, but her socially embedded issues that have come out now that she would take to the foot of the cross as a believer. We didn’t necessarily see them as her children, but with dementia stripping away her facade and her mask that we often put on when we go to church or thing, but those were the things she laid at the foot of the cross. But as her sister in Christ now, I hear them and I see them and I can help her pray through them.

Again, we’re in a spiritual battle and so we can push those under the rug and say, “We don’t want to deal with those.” But as believers, we have the privilege of walking with her now in this stage of her life and that’s the blessing of the Holy spirit, the blessing of Christ that as our marriage changes and as our roles change, not only with each other, but with our family members that we can as a whole ministry, we can serve in that way with our family as well. That’s how we’ve seen the Lord redeem and restore and that’s how we’ve seen the gospel transform.

Andy
Just because of how foundational this chapter is and how rich and how much content there is in it, but I also wanted to ask Karl, why are you somewhat unfiltered? Why didn’t you mention this either?

Karl
My tagline is #nofilter. So I guess it was three years ago I battled kidney cancer. I have only part of one kidney left so my left side is unfiltered.

Andy
Left side unfiltered.

Karl
Unlike my stream of consciousness.

Andy
Fun providential story is that my father-in-law had his kidney removed. Was it his left or his right? His right I believe, I don’t remember on the same operating table immediately before Karl, like same morning. They were like back-to-back appointments.

Karl
It was toasty warm.

Andy
And they work at the same place, so it’s kind of crazy. Well…

Shanna
Talk about God’s providence.

Andy
I know, right?

Shanna
It was so fun.

Andy
It made the hospital visits so easy for me. I just got to go see about the guys in the same hall. Well, I’m so glad that you were able to join us today. Thank you for being here. Thank you for opening up and I know we could talk a lot longer. I will say is there any just last encouragement from any anyone Bryan, Shanna, Karl, just anything that really stood out or you felt helped by, or you think would help our listeners as they process through this question of how broad broken this really is and why we do what we do.

Karl
I think one of the things that we try to tell other couples is be intentional. One thing that Shanna I’ve done throughout the years is try to do at one thing a year as a married couple, whether that be a conference or just to get away or whatever. But be intentional about going in and mining some of these gyms together, as you change and grow or you go through different seasons of life. We’re empty nesters now. So this is a totally new season, but we have so much of a foundation to stand on than just our children.

Andy
I’m at the risk of trying to be too humorous too much in this. You’re sure you’re not the exact same people you were 35 years ago when you get married?

Shanna
We’re positive we’re not the exact same.

Andy
Positive. Yeah, no, I mean, it’s still logical. We don’t think about the impact of that, but think about our children when they grow from birth to 18, there’s a lot of change that happens and do we just expect okay, and from the moment of, I do like static, there’s no change for the rest of…

Shanna
Oh yeah, there’s a lot of times Karl will look at me and I’ll say, “Who are you?”

Andy
That’s right.

Shanna
I’m like, “Your spicy Shanna, that’s who I am.”

Karl
That’s another show.

Shanna
Oh, yeah. We didn’t sign up for that chapter.

Andy
Oh, that’s great. Well, thank you guys. Anything else?

Shanna
Oh, I will say one blessing from Mr. Non-affection. His aunt…

Karl
Oh, that’s me?

Shanna
Yep. So Karl’s aunt said to me one day when I was giving her a hug, she said, “I’m so glad you’re in our family because we were never very huggy, but we hug now.” So that was just another sweet thing.

Andy
That is sweet. Praise the Lord. Well, thank you guys for being here, Bryan, thanks brother and to you our listeners. Thank you for joining, hope this has been encouraging to you and we’ll look forward to catching you on the next episode. Blessings.

Outro
Thanks for listening to this episode of the “Gospel Shaped Home” podcast produced by Providence Baptist Church of Raleigh, North Carolina. For more information and resources from Providence, visit us online pray.org. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.